tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-294168038851154517.comments2023-08-06T03:37:52.108-05:00AM in practiceAnonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16749417303643546408noreply@blogger.comBlogger78125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-294168038851154517.post-22938042219903468762015-03-29T11:33:41.985-05:002015-03-29T11:33:41.985-05:00Chuck, thanks for the comment, especially the anec...Chuck, thanks for the comment, especially the anecdote about the state agency. It sort of drives home the point that I was trying to make: the piece of paper matters more than the skills, at least in some cases. <br />I didn't forget that I was your co-advisor! I thought about including you in there but didn't for a couple reasons. First, I don't know your post-PhD story as well as the others. Second, I became your co-advisor sort of late in the game, and so didn't have the influence on your PhD that I did for the others. Your PhD fell into the category of "collected data, did awesome job of analyzing data, built cool simulation models". AFTER your PhD you parleyed those skills into a pure data analysis/programmer career, which is awesome. <br />To be honest, I'd have interacted with you about the same amount if I'd just been a member of your supervisory committee. That's the main reason why I need to be careful about agreeing to be on supervisory committees!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16749417303643546408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-294168038851154517.post-35841205325067825402015-03-29T11:24:19.243-05:002015-03-29T11:24:19.243-05:00This is from Chuck Frost, who had some IT troubles...This is from Chuck Frost, who had some IT troubles but could post to FB.<br />Wow, my federal google account blocks me from commenting in your blog...haha. Anyway, a couple brief points: I was once offered a job with a state agency that was eventually blocked by their Human Resources because "what would the other biometricians think if we hired a biologist to lead them?" I made it through several interviews and left them thinking I was the best statistician for the job...then they saw my degree. I also got a job that had a ridiculous botany requirement (that I certainly wouldn't need to succeed in it) by claiming Ecological Detection and EcoStats were actually plant courses. Thankfully no course descriptions existed at the time. And today my position description says biologist, but last I checked, I'm a computer programmer, statistician, and general naysayer. You don't have to tell people not to be like you...your students (me included, even though you don't claim your co-advisorship...sheesh) learn to just want to. That's one of the few things I took from grad school, but I can attribute at least 90% of my success to it. So thanks.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16749417303643546408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-294168038851154517.post-4985163573400979072015-03-28T22:28:28.012-05:002015-03-28T22:28:28.012-05:00Noelle, short answer is no, I'll still be on P...Noelle, short answer is no, I'll still be on PhD committees. That's pretty much an extension of helping people develop the skills they need to succeed by teaching my courses. That's why I need to be careful about how many committees I agree to be on; all that 'semi-regular brain picking' adds up fast! <br />The idea of pulling people together more regularly is an intriguing one. I do already control the number of people I help outside ecostats by restricting help to those whose committees I'm on. So by trying to meet at a regular time I might concentrate the 'semi-regular brain picking' into one time slot. On the other hand, people's problems tend not to occur at regular times, and often people have long stretches with no problems at all (really!). <br />The other issue is finding a time that many different people could come to, and avoiding the appearance of interfering with other people's students. <br />Your second point is spot on; ecologists need to learn more math/stat/computing than they typically have, but not necessarily enough to get a statistics degree. And, people like Max, Adam, Trevor and I, people that understand both statistics and ecology will be necessary. The point I was trying to make was that I may not be able to meet both of those training needs myself, given the circumstances I find myself in. But that's OK. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16749417303643546408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-294168038851154517.post-65696204416061955392015-03-28T12:56:21.178-05:002015-03-28T12:56:21.178-05:00I was wondering if your decision to stop taking on...I was wondering if your decision to stop taking on PhD students impacts your decision to serve on PhD committees. I feel very lucky to have you on my committee because it allow me to pick your brain on a semi-regular basis. It seems like serving on committees might be a great way to foster a community of students interested in tackling ecological statistics issues, similar to the lab experience you mentioned you had in Australia. It would also eliminate the pressure of trying to find funding or produce “clones.” Another added bonus would be that it would allow you to have control over the number of students asking you for help outside of EcoStats. <br />I’d also like to add my perspective as someone who came into academia excited over ecology, and then got interested in the contribution statistics and mathematics can make to decision making. I’ve found it very challenging to dive from an ecology background into statistics. If I knew back in freshman year of college the skills I would want down the line, I probably would have taken a different path, but my passion for natural resource conservation issues was (and remains) the strongest driver of what I study. People with your skill set are invaluable to students like me. We have tried to improve our stats skills through stats/math coursework, but at the end of the day we are not about to “start over” by committing to a stats degree and will need folks like you and Trevor to be our translators. <br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03484441576636007914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-294168038851154517.post-47334755308565259722015-03-27T21:50:55.291-05:002015-03-27T21:50:55.291-05:00Thanks for this post, Drew. I had only a foggy ide...Thanks for this post, Drew. I had only a foggy idea of the challenges of funding PhD students in the U.S.A. and absolutely no idea that lacking a formal statistics qualification could be such a hindrance.Cindyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07147906610629741961noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-294168038851154517.post-68863766453860149982015-03-27T20:26:24.194-05:002015-03-27T20:26:24.194-05:00Oh, and exactly, I'm not concerned about train...Oh, and exactly, I'm not concerned about training graduate level ecological statisticians anymore! You can do it once you pick which statistics department you're going to work in :) Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16749417303643546408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-294168038851154517.post-74212926751935135592015-03-27T20:18:40.014-05:002015-03-27T20:18:40.014-05:00Yeah, I remember that story too. I didn't mean...Yeah, I remember that story too. I didn't mean to imply that I didn't add ANYTHING to your education! I think Trevor and Adam also got a good dose of programming & simulation they wouldn't have from a pure Statistics degree. <br />I also view analysis as part of ecology, but the issue is with how much "analysis" vs. "data collection" is the right mix for any one person, and if you're going to fall on the "pure analysis side", what are the best credentials to get. You and I are obvious examples that it is *possible* to succeed as an analyst without the statistics degree. The question is whether following in my footsteps *exactly* is the best advice I can give a future student. I've concluded that no, it isn't the best advice. <br />Let me illustrate with another anecdote. I recall hearing from someone in the USGS who was trying to fill a postdoc position for which someone from my lab had applied. They didn't make it to the interview stage because they didn't have a statistics degree, even though the ultimate supervisor thought they would be a great fit for the job with the right skills. That was an eye-opener to the importance of having the right bit of paper, even in academic/research circles. <br />I also know that lots of ecologists value what I have to teach them. I hear that a lot! And, what I've decided to do is focus my attention on those students that want to do ecology, but also do a good job of analysis. They're not going to develop new methods or analyse other people's data, but they do need some serious skills to succeed in the 21st century. Given the structural/funding constraints, I will have a much larger impact by focusing my efforts on those folks, rather than trying to train PhD students like you, Adam, and Trevor. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16749417303643546408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-294168038851154517.post-59473112856936320142015-03-27T20:02:31.085-05:002015-03-27T20:02:31.085-05:00Post PhD you are correct, there are not many that ...Post PhD you are correct, there are not many that will cross over, and that's true in Mathematics as well. Which is why the co-advising PhD students is a great path to training people with the understanding needed to be successful in both disciplines. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16749417303643546408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-294168038851154517.post-43055524901006687082015-03-27T17:47:20.687-05:002015-03-27T17:47:20.687-05:00Thanks for the post, Drew.
I recall an anecdote w...Thanks for the post, Drew.<br /><br />I recall an anecdote when I was taking Bayesian statistics there at UNL. I was the only non-statistician in the class, but also the only student who knew how to program, simulate data and finish the homework. Anyway, our professor told us that there was a special place in hell for consulting statisticians. His thinking was that ecologists should analyze their own data and set up their own research designs. Academic statisticians should develop theory and methods, not analyze other people's data. His comments have stuck with and I personally view ecological analysis as part of being an ecologist.<br /><br />You should also consider, Drew, that not all of your students really care about how marketable they are. Some really value and admire what you have to teach them and are willing to make a go of it regardless of the job prospects. I know my supervisor thinks my skill set is unique and I wouldn't think it was as valuable if everyone had the same training.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03090126425887257322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-294168038851154517.post-73601928667979560962015-03-27T17:46:31.164-05:002015-03-27T17:46:31.164-05:00If statisticians and mathematicians will become in...If statisticians and mathematicians will become interested enough in ecology to become the next Andy Royle or Ken Burnham, then why should people like us be remotely concerned about training (graduate level) ecological statisticians? I think what you have observed may be more common for mathematicians than statisticians. I think you are under valuing how much time and interaction with scientists it takes to understand a specific scientific field. As we move away from more standard models (e.g., lm(...)) to custom models for specific applications (e.g., N-mixture), having a background in another field is what a large number of statisticians will be lacking. You might get a few academic statisticians to become interested in ecology, but on the whole someone with no experience in ecology is not going to take the time later in their career (post PhD) to understand ecology. At least that is my current projection. This is a good discussion to have!!!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04713136039985155771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-294168038851154517.post-16289405197478958462015-03-27T13:33:24.933-05:002015-03-27T13:33:24.933-05:00And was that a soft or hard release? :)
Interesti...And was that a soft or hard release? :) <br />Interesting thought about the difficulty of getting into a graduate degree in statistics. <br />I think the next generation will come from the same place as the last generation -- from the subset of statisticians that cross over in terms of interest. I've seen enough examples of people developing a professional interest in ecology during graduate school in math and statistics that I'm not worried about supply. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16749417303643546408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-294168038851154517.post-80910509897485771222015-03-27T11:12:59.198-05:002015-03-27T11:12:59.198-05:00Thanks for the thought-provoking post! After bein...Thanks for the thought-provoking post! After being released into the wild about a year ago (i.e., I defended and graduated) and interviewing for several faculty positions, I see the structural problem with funding as a huge limitation for students in wildlife biology who want to obtain a formal training in statistics. In short, I don’t know how I could produce students in that setting unless they were self-funded or received an NSF fellowship. <br /><br />Many statisticians that focus on wildlife or ecological questions were not statisticians from the beginning (Including me!); they received undergraduate and graduate degrees in biology/ecology/wildlife biology. I think one reason statisticians like Andy Royle and Ken Burnham are successful is because of their ability to connect statistics to another discipline. As the number of applicants to graduate programs in statistics increases, it may become more difficult for students who did not major in mathematics or statistics as an undergraduate to obtain a graduate degree in statistics. Without a pre-existing interest in another field, it is not clear to me where the next generation of ecological statisticians will come from. <br /><br />-Trevor<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04713136039985155771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-294168038851154517.post-57573735022964385622015-03-11T16:37:47.052-05:002015-03-11T16:37:47.052-05:00Thanks! Error was on my end, rogue HTML code from ...Thanks! Error was on my end, rogue HTML code from copying a quote, should be fixed now.<br /><br />I am thinking about expanding on that comment, as it seems to have attracted some attention ... Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16749417303643546408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-294168038851154517.post-3925135444946901092015-03-10T20:48:36.882-05:002015-03-10T20:48:36.882-05:00Great wrap-up as always, Drew. I'm not sure if...Great wrap-up as always, Drew. I'm not sure if the problem is at my end or yours, but most of your text from "In the gluten department, ..." to "2nd piece by Dave Vaux" is in an unreadable colour on my screen, though I can access it by highlighting it.<br /><br />You no longer supervise PhDs?! I'd be very interested in reading a longer post about this, if you're up for writing it.Cindyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07147906610629741961noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-294168038851154517.post-57869458742592200032015-02-04T07:43:45.132-06:002015-02-04T07:43:45.132-06:00So wonderful to see academia-agency cross pollinat...So wonderful to see academia-agency cross pollination! You set a great example Hannah Birgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12674338470545999555noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-294168038851154517.post-61466207448487569352014-11-17T14:21:53.553-06:002014-11-17T14:21:53.553-06:00Much better! Much better! Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16749417303643546408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-294168038851154517.post-4705391383301889832014-11-17T13:41:22.019-06:002014-11-17T13:41:22.019-06:00Wow, the figures really suck. I thought I'd fi...Wow, the figures really suck. I thought I'd fixed that problem. Let me try that again.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16749417303643546408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-294168038851154517.post-56298505576487287462014-11-11T12:15:18.865-06:002014-11-11T12:15:18.865-06:00Thanks for the comments Cindy. The notion of putti...Thanks for the comments Cindy. The notion of putting together some kind of synthesis of those issues has occurred to a few people. So far no one has taken the time needed! I've started haphazardly interviewing a few people with an idea of getting at those "preconditions" directly, but very slow progress. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16749417303643546408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-294168038851154517.post-42170639796661610462014-11-11T12:13:24.633-06:002014-11-11T12:13:24.633-06:00Thanks for that link and reference to the special ...Thanks for that link and reference to the special issue, Amy! I've read at least one of those papers before, by Gene Likens on the Acid Rain debate. From his conclusion though, I'm not sure he's gotten over the linear deficit model: "...scientists cannot expect politicians to listen to them if they cannot make clear and compelling statements." Also in his "Panel 1" there are clear indications that the fault lies in communication. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16749417303643546408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-294168038851154517.post-3764724323439751532014-11-11T11:14:36.686-06:002014-11-11T11:14:36.686-06:00http://www.esajournals.org/doi/abs/10.1890/090160 ...http://www.esajournals.org/doi/abs/10.1890/090160 - link to a Frontiers article I'm a co-author on, on those same themes. There was a whole special issue on Science Communication along with this piece - much of it focused on how the "deficit model" doesn't work for building an informed coalition on an issue. The issue was a product of a Cary Conference on the same theme.Amy Burginhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13367856919145116582noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-294168038851154517.post-39410523096365285772014-11-10T15:12:30.667-06:002014-11-10T15:12:30.667-06:00This is a terrific program and it's heartening...This is a terrific program and it's heartening to read that there's been genuine uptake after many workshops. I think it'd be wonderful if NCTC and its SDM leaders were able to provide extended reflection and follow-up on the factors that have affected uptake, e.g. team make-up, decision scope, simple vs complex modelling, short vs long-term outlook, funding structures, ...<br /><br />The projects are diverse and might not lend themselves to a straight forward synthesis but nevertheless I imagine that many SDMers and modellers would be keen to learn from the challenges and successes of the program.<br /><br />From the NCTC and "problem haver" side, it could also be useful for recognising up front which problems are a good fit for SDM (vs those needing conflict resolution or another tool) and what the obstacles are likely to be along the way.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-294168038851154517.post-56863709904518577092014-11-03T13:24:38.766-06:002014-11-03T13:24:38.766-06:00Ooops. Try it now. Or click on the link to Cindy&#...Ooops. Try it now. Or click on the link to Cindy's blog over on the right. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16749417303643546408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-294168038851154517.post-92013131528267785212014-11-03T12:28:20.846-06:002014-11-03T12:28:20.846-06:00Having trouble with the "a new mini-review on...Having trouble with the "a new mini-review on AM" linkAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03484441576636007914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-294168038851154517.post-81251169778788655552014-10-24T08:40:42.956-05:002014-10-24T08:40:42.956-05:00I recieved an email comment from someone too busy ...I recieved an email comment from someone too busy to post here:<br />"The first line in the link to the pima suiggests that they and their forebears arrived in na over 30,000 years ago, WTF? how credible is the rest of the research based on that first line then to suggest they grew and harvested wheat?? <br /><br />I didnt bother reading any further"<br /><br />Thanks for picking that first line up, too early by at least several thousand years. To be fair, this is something written by a PR person on behalf of a group of scientists who aren't anthropologists. <br /><br />I agree the Pima certaintly didn't grow wheat when they first settled down ~2 millenia ago, but they could have been growing it when European settlers trashed their irrigation systems in the 19th century. Wheat had arrived in NA by then. <br /><br />However, there are plenty of other things in that website that would raise your ire as an adherent to the carb hypothesis of diabetes and obesity! Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16749417303643546408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-294168038851154517.post-73365579007474678892014-09-15T08:26:28.644-05:002014-09-15T08:26:28.644-05:00Thanks Cindy! Thanks Cindy! Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16749417303643546408noreply@blogger.com